Tonic Fab Launches New Site - About time!

Your best comment yet. You are learning, grasshoppa.

I was aroused by the Fall Guy, as weird as that sounds.

im guessing itl be some sort of lightweight yet strong aluminium/steel blend

steel

Yes, the Fall Guy.

awesome, cheers man

Are you serious? These frames are probably stronger than whatever your riding.

i have a Howie and it is easily the best frame i have ever rode. smoothest bike in trails period. i've been on mine for a year with not a problem.

go for a giant stp. half the price. includes a headset. lifetime warranty. tell me one better thing better about the tonic fab than an STP?

Tonic is hand welded?
Tonic is a small brand, meaning you are more "noticed" in the industry, compared to if you were riding a standard STP.
Tonic Fab's have a more dialed geometry someone may say. They have been constructed around a certain aspect of the sport.
Tonic Fab bikes utilize unique things, like press in BB cups, and 35 degree angular contact internal headset's.
Tonic Fab has a limited warranty, however, when supporting a small company you cannot expect a lifetime warranty.

Tonics are steel and hand made in in a small shop Portland, Oregon by two guys who ride. Name one thing about Giant thats better than Tonic. You get what you pay for.

ya but tell me what you get when you pay for it?

quality, the bikes are handmade not done by machine in taiwan.
geometry, tonics are so low and ride so much better

Landon here from Tonic Fab.

I think ganstask8er makes some good points.

One: Lack of head tube flanges and tapers. Good eye! I figured someone might call us out for head tube flanges, but I didn't think anyone would notice our lack of tapers. Ganstask8er really knows his stuff.

Two: A Tonic costs more than a Giant. He's exposed a problem with my market research. Again, Ganstask8er really knows his stuff. See, I thought the price of an STP was frame only not the whole bike! I figured we could beat Giant on price, sell tons of frames and then we'd be the one people call Giant. Giant Tonic! That's Right!
That was my plan. Now I'm screwed.

-L

Your "two" statement didn't make any sense. P.S. Your sarcasm is amazing. Maybe rather than giving some irrelevant rebuttal to my observations about your bike frame you should try stand behind your company and answer my question - Compared to an STP what are the benefits? (Besides being hand built - Taiwan has superior manufacturing)

you don't need to be such a ass ganstask8er. obviously tonic fab can't compete with a multinational corporation like giant on price and be made in the states at the same time. what you get with tonic fab is you support north american jobs, get a unique frame, and hopefully a more personalized customer service. you buy a tonic when you want something top quality and unique.

I wish my tonic had tapers and flanges.

i bet you wish that. i would wish that too if i owned a tonic. i guess you could just buy a king deep fit steelset and then you wouldn't ovalize the headtube.

ganstask8er:

You get what you give.

It's hard to imagine having an intelligent discussion on topics as broad and detailed as manufacturing, design or quality control with someone who writes like 3rd grader.

I worked for a Taiwanese bicycle frame manufacturer for over 4 years. My partner for 10. I've been to Taiwan on numerous occasions. It wasn't for vacations. We've had Tonic for the past 4, going on 5 years. I know a little bit about the topic of bicycle frame quality.

Using terms like "head tube flange" and "tapers" speaks to your experience.

Look, I know what you are getting at. Why spend a bunch of extra money on a Tonic, when your Giant works fine? Obviously there are quite a few differences between a Howie and an STP. If you can't see those differences... see my point above about "head tube flanges."

There's a million reasons to just ride a Giant.
There's a million reasons people want bikes other than Giants.

Ask someone why they are drinking a micro brew instead of a Coors the next time you are out.

Now, I'm out.

-L

I'm the one who writes like a third grader when you wrote multiple incomplete sentences and sentence fragments above. And also, you still haven't answered my question about the advantages to getting a tonic over an STP. I guess there must be no valid reasons then.

-G

to bad i answered your question a while ago.

What's the advantage to being a "gangster skater" versus a regular skater? do you push mongo? are you the guy at the park that sits around heckling but isn't actually skating or riding and then asks me repeatedly for a cigarette? why not just skate sans gang? I think in the end if you have to ask "why" regarding Tonic then its just not your thing. There are plenty of bikes out there for you, including the STP, which is a great ALUMINUM bike. I get your program, I've seen your comments around and its cool, I do the same thing sometimes(being a dick for no reason). In this case, your questions HAVE been answered and its time to move on. Also King headsets will not fit Tonic as it has an integrated headset (like the STP) and you didn't capitalize some I's above.

your right I cant read, my mistake. I spent too much time riding instead of going to school, but now I'm rich and can spend all day on the internet battling over bike frames, which I also do not know too much about (unlike you, who seems to know most things). I got a Tonic because it was a pretty orange color and not because I can go to the shop and see where its built and have some beers after riding with the guys who designed and built my frame. Also if you knew the headset was "integrated" then why did you suggest getting a king headset for it? on that note-why run a king headset when you can just get an FSA,canecreek, etc? side note king is just a few miles from tonic....not that the headsets are compatible but they both make some sick shit in my town giving jobs to people who love to make high quality domestic products. What does Giant (Blackmarket, NS, whatever) do for your local economy?

I did look up "gansta" I like this answer-
gansta
Usualy a teen female who is concieted and popular and listens to "emo/screamo" bands refers to herself as gansta, and makes gang signs with her hands such as: Peace sign,west side,east side and the infamous nigga please. Also refers to her friends as her home skillets or hommies. Sometimes calls her friend G.
is this you?

I can do this all day tomorrow as well, like I said I'm rich and can spend all day on the internet. So you keep twisting your panties and I will keep "avoiding" your questions.

you also didn't answer my questions regarding skateboarding.

oh and your mom is semi-integrated. ha.

I ride a tonic because c*nts like you don't. That is one good reason, and is frankly worth the $700 I paid.

Second, the tonic head tube magic is internal, you will never know this as I doubt you will ever see one. But Landon and Tony actually are working to design a superior hardtail jumping bicycle, and their attention to detail is where you see the price difference-it economics.

Tonics have machined from billet drop outs/STPs have cast drop outs
a seemingly little thing like that costs money.

These things add up, its economics/science/math/magic.


Tonic not being tied by economical constraints that a company like Giant, looking to capitalize on margins which depend largely on machine time and labor costs. Giant cuts stylistic and practical corners in design and manufacture which may have no factor in performance so they can spend money on marketing etc...

Tonic does not do this, they take 1/10th of a decade to put together a website. while concentrating on design and manufacture.

You are equating a Suzuki GSX-R to a Ducati 1198s. One costs 13k the other 42k. they both go like hell, but at the end of the day I think we all know what we'd prefer to ride. Once you outgrow puberty you may start to enjoy subtle differences and how they make a ride unique.

At any rate gansask8ter, both NS and Black Market are made in Taiwan, Tonics are made in the USA, and some of us like to spend our money locally, and on people who really care about bikes, and not so much drops to flat; being a Canadian, I don't expect you to understand that.

I really tried to have correct spelling and grammar and even threw in some little tech moves like that dependent clause semi-colon, I apologize for any offensive mistakes as I am a US citizen and more concerned with my right to own a handgun, and to say: Go f*ck Yourself.

Ganstask8er, just be quiet man. Because here's the ultimate truth for you.

A Giant STP frame is okay, for the masses. It caters to a wide variety of needs, i.e. junior kids starting out.

But TonicFab frames are made for those who know what they want and how to ride it, not every 11-year-old hack that buys an STP off me every weekend.

Ganstask8er, you're well out of your depth here.

So stop embarassing yourself man.

Who cares about about revenue, or tax dollars, or whatever you're saying. People who wanna ride a bike that actually feels nice, will buy a Tonic Fab. Or NS. Or BlkMrkt.

Oh, and you want advantages?

- Steel rides a lot nicer than Aluminium. It's smoother, less harsh and all-around better. There's a reason just about every company that makes trails/park specific frames chooses it.

- Horizontal Dropouts. Just about everyone who buys a Tonic Fab will run it singlespeed. and that eats dick on an STP, as you have to mess around with stupid shit like chain tensioners, singlespeed kits, etc.

- Geometry. The geometry is much more sharp-tuned for the type of riding the Tonic-Fab is built for. Much shorter chainstays, steeper angles, the list goes on.

- Looks. TonicFab, and indeed all those companies (NS etc) all have much sharper lines, much thinner tubing, and much less ugly gussets, mounts, and other dangly objects that are really superflous to those who know exactly what they wanna ride.

So. If you wanna go hack around someone's backyard dirt jumps, or huck drops, or try your hand at junior hardtail downhill, go by an STP

But if you want to chase that specific discipline of MTB that the Tonic is built for, then step it up and realise that it actually is so, so much better than a Giant STP.

Congratulations on using my own point against me, of course the stp(or any other mass produced bike) is more profit efficient than a tonic(or any other boutique bike), but bike built by a smaller company will generally display a high level of craftsmanship.

Simply, a larger company's mass produced bike will appeal to more people who require a less precise tool (i.e. an adjustable wrench)

But when you have the ability to notice the difference, and a 13mm wrench feels better, than those who can tell/afford/care it use a 13mm wrench.

The point is, what may be a practical design from the standpoint of cost effective manufacturing seldom lines up with a use effective product. Just ask your government who buys spendy fighter jets from the USA and Europe, when most Russian units would probably do.

more street cred, and thats enough for me

Im gonna sell my tonic and buy an STP. I have been convinced. He's right about everything. I want to generate more tax revenue because apparently that IS economy. I hate quality and local builders.

Im going on an all fast food diet because there isnt any advantage to eating higher quality food or eating at home when you can survive just fine on fast food and generate more tax revenue for these companys thus supporting the economy. Big macs although mass produced and filled with lower quality nutrients will fill me up just as much as a local pubs burger, so whats the point? TASTE is not in my vocabulary, I am simply an analytical device.

Ganstask8er-Will you lead the anti-Tonic revolution?

The Tonic rear end is 1/2" tighter, the frame is 1/2 pound lighter. The Tonic craftsmanship is higher and you sir are a douche.

They are both great bikes. Tonic does not need nor want someone like you on one of there frames. Thats why there are options. Capatilism at its finest.

Yes, I know I spelled capitalism wrong, so don't use that as a point in your counter-argument.

ganstask8er, just shut up, dude.

you say "you know you won't win" and then you go right ahead to drop your first argument. that's the first concession, and it was yours. you're losing dude, so be quiet and stop embarrassing yourself.

First off dude… have you EVER seen a tonic in real life? If you had I bet you wouldn’t be talking all this crap about a company you know nothing about. The craftsmanship and attention to detail is amazing. Every single part of the frame is custom made inside of their shop located right here in Portland. Tonic fab isn't trying to cater to everyone. So go ahead and spend less on another frame, I'm sure it will do you just fine. The fact is that some people prefer having nicer equipment and they are willing to pay a little more to get it. Place a black market and a tonic frame next to each other and you’ll easily see the differences. So stop being a dick trying to prove everyone wrong. Nobody cares! The only reason you haven’t gotten a full list of all the advantages is because no one wants to waste their time trying to convince you.

Aw, geez, I'm thinking I shouldn't enter in to this but here goes...

I think those Tonic frames look downright sexy, those curves, that subtle paintwork (now where can I get a subtle fork?), just gorgeous. I'd chuck a low profile Crank Bros directset on that wonderful headtube.

Has anyone that has ridden a Tonic also ridden some of the more common frames so we can hear about the difference in the ride? Spesh P series, STP, Cowan, Blk Mrkt etc? These Tonics look great, sound like they made with love and if they are indeed lighter AND steel, I'm interested.

See ganstask8er? If you were TRULY interested in your question being answered, you'd to be polite, set your question out properly and without the belligerence that your profile shows you thrive on. Also, stating that a frame LOOKS weak is just ridiculous. No wonder you got hammered by everyone else, you deserved it!

Some others of you need to know that if you ride and work on enough bikes, you will find that that 'Hand Made in the USA' is not always a guarantee that the welds are good or the frame is straight. Don't be snobs. Every Giant-welded frame I've had in my stand in the past five years was straight as an arrow and the welds are very nice. If you don't believe me, compare the new Blur LT with the old.

Warranty and after sales service is worth a lot. Sometimes it is worth the price of the entire frame. If a local guy is producing at least a similar product but for a bit more cash, on purely financial terms one may end up in front.

Money aside, that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you hold a superb frame in your hand is priceless. If I was to carry a Tonic frame through the crowds at Sea Otter I would get stopped more times by strangers asking about it that an STP frame. In that regard, there is no comparison between the two.

Remember the STP was designed by Lenosky, one of the best riders ever. I've ridden a lot of bikes in my 20 years of MTB and I think the STP jumps very nicely. The reason the groms love the STP is because it is the cheapest of the good. Don't judge a ride by the purchaser. If it were so, you'd have to get rid of your Porsche, as lovely as it handles. Judge a ride by its ride.

In regards to steel versus aluminium, for DJ I don't care. The jumps I build are so smooth that frame material does not matter. For singletrack hardtails, steel rides nicer indeed.

The bottom line is that I'd ride a parameceum-designed bike made from chawed up mouldy straw and bird spit if it was strong, light, reliable, had a great warranty and rides how I like. I'd happily pay the algae chompin' suckers a little more for it too!

I have ridden one of those more common frames, and the shorter rear end gives you more control in manuals because there is less of a leverage moment about the rear axle. I could feel this difference within minutes of being on it.

Also it allows for tighter handling in quarter pipes, and is especially noticeable when doing ally-oop 270's on a 90* hip. This also holds true for 360 to fakies on a qp as it puts your rear tire further from the coping when you are at 180*. This is all due to pulling the gyroscopic forces of the wheels closer to the axis of rotation via a steep head angle and shorter chainstays.

This is all due to the rear chainstay yoke which believe me has a lot of machine time into it. It starts as a flat piece of metal, is machined into a conic shape, the bent to accommodate the stays I know about a bit about metal fab so i appreciate this more than some.

The riot is a made from a general 725 chromo, which is inferior to tonic's aircraft grade 4130 tonictanium chromo due to a lower carbon content.

science bitch.

science is stupid, Jesus is the answer. Jesus rides Tonic.

giveherhell, for one the rear end of the tonic is not short enough for a piece of shit rider like you to notice the difference. second, if you're even worried about riding stuff that is two tight for 26's, just ride a bmx. as far as i'm concerned their are no advantages to mtb's in skatepark situations. in fact, i think anything over 20' should be illegal in skateparks just like i think it should be illegal for americans to visit canada. BMX's are for street and dirt, and mtb's are for the trails. done. (also, don't try to impress me with saying gyroscopic forces and shit like that cause you're not even using it in the right context. i think you mean you don't feel the forces of the wheel's centrifugal force as much because they are located closer to the centre mass of the bike) i have an IQ of 160 so don't try to pull anything on me.

I though i'd never get into this type of argument, but this hits way too close to home.

You see, the truth is, the customer is always right, therefore, Ganstask8er, you are right and always will be. The STP is the ideal bike for you. You are a rather educated consumer and it is obvious that you want your hard-earned dollar to go the furthest and a STP will make you happy.
I respect that.

The other truth that you seem to forget is that you are not the sole prototype of the ideal consumer. There are other people, you might notice, that defend their opinions, some more eloquently than others, but the point stands.
These people are right and will always be as well.

Now lets forget the product for a minute.
Have you ever met Landon? I did, once. He's a great dude, passionate about bikes and his product. Proud of his hard labor. It was obvious we shared similar opinions as we discussed of our respective businesses.
I've welded many hundreds frames in my short career and I'm willing to bet I can remember every single one. Show me one of my frames and I can tell you how I felt that day. I remember the frames I welded when I broke my knee, when I sold my last car, when I met my girlfriend. Every frame receives my full attention for the short time it's under my torch. All that matters in my existence is the well-being and satisfaction of it's future owner.

That is what you get when you buy a frame from Tonic, Brooklyn, FBM, Superco, my Dobermann's or any other great micro-builders out there. You get the dedication of a select few who choose pride over fame. You get that manufacturer's version of what he thinks is the perfect bike, the reflection of his passion.

I will never be as productive or effective as a Taiwanese welder, who welds kilometers of beads in a week. But he sure ain't thinking of you when he's doing it.

Ganstask8er, I invite you to the dober-shop. I'll give you a tour (it only take 5 minutes, the shop is small!) and after we'll go for a beer and talk bikes, I love talking bikes. Than maybe you'll understand me as I understood Landon when we chatted a couple of years ago.

Cheers!

Well I ride 20's too and enjoy it very much, I also ride road bikes and motorcycles. If it has two wheels, I'll give it a shot.

You are right about one thing, I am a shitty rider, I wish i was better, but I still have fun none the less.

Since you have an IQ of 160 you should be able to follow along:

Gyroscopes posses rigidity in space, and a rotating moment perpendicular to their rotational axis will be met with resistance. Centrifugal force is what flings mud off your tires, what I believe you are referring to is angular momentum.

Since you already know what that is you can skip this next sentence as it is for the benefit of everyone else: Angular momentum is the constant acceleration of an object(i.e. your rims and tires) rotating about a fixed point (hub) this constant acceleration works to stabilize the rotating apparatus as the velocity of every part of the mass is pulling away from the mass opposite it. this creates a gyroscope.

As previously stated a gyroscope mounted on a fixed gimbal(your bike) will resist any rotational moments because this changes the velocity of the constantly accelerating rotating mass, this is best described by Coriollis' Law of conservation of angular momentum.

In laymans terms this contributes to why it is easyier to spin on a 20" than an MTB(notice the quotation marks Ganstask8er those denote inches,
' denotes feet. 20 foot wheels would be no fun to ride, people with an IQ of 160 should know that.)

Moving the rotational moment perpendicular to the wheel's axis of rotation (z-axis) closer to the bike's axis of rotation in a spin (y-axis) will result in less force resisting the spin of the bicycle.

That can be evidenced by the fact that it is relatively hard to do a 360 on something with a large wheelbase like a DH bike. Shitty riders like myself know this, but you with your IQ of 160(nothing to be scoffed at, well into genius territory)and riding ability akin to Jesus, probably don't know how that feels.

giveherhell-4
ganstask8er-0 (but apparently an IQ of 160)

i can 360 the shit out of anything. go on youtube. i was the first one to ever 360 a snowmobile. and you should believe me when i say that you're full of shit and with your angular momentum argument. with my IQ i actually considered a genius. Want me to tell you about the theory I am working on. The Higgs boson particle is one quantum component of the theoretical Higgs field. In empty space, the Higgs field has an amplitude different from zero, i.e., a non-zero vacuum expectation value. The existence of this non-zero vacuum expectation plays a fundamental role: it gives mass to every elementary particle which should have mass, including the Higgs boson itself. In particular, the acquisition of a non-zero vacuum expectation value spontaneously breaks electroweak gauge symmetry, which scientists often refer to as the Higgs mechanism. This is the simplest mechanism capable of giving mass to the gauge bosons while remaining compatible with gauge theories. In essence, this field is analogous to a pool of molasses that "sticks" to the otherwise massless fundamental particles which travel through the field, converting them into particles with mass which form, for example, the components of atoms.
In the Standard Model, the Higgs field consists of two neutral and two charged component fields. Both of the charged components and one of the neutral fields are Goldstone bosons, which act as the longitudinal third-polarization components of the massive W+, W–, and Z bosons. The quantum of the remaining neutral component corresponds to the massive Higgs boson. Since the Higgs field is a scalar field, the Higgs boson has no spin, hence no intrinsic angular momentum. The Higgs boson is also its own antiparticle and is CP-even.
The Standard Model does not predict the mass of the Higgs boson. If that mass is between 115 and 180 GeV/c2, then the Standard Model can be valid at energy scales all the way up to the Planck scale (1016 TeV). Many theorists expect new physics beyond the Standard Model to emerge at the TeV-scale, based on unsatisfactory properties of the Standard Model. The highest possible mass scale allowed for the Higgs boson (or some other electroweak symmetry breaking mechanism) is around one TeV; beyond this point, the Standard Model becomes inconsistent without such a mechanism because unitarity is violated in certain scattering processes. Many models of Supersymmetry predict that the lightest Higgs boson (of several) will have a mass only slightly above the current experimental limits, at around 120 GeV or less. ------f*ck you. I'm smarter than you. (P.s i didn't make a mistake about the 20'. I actually love riding my bike with 20 foot wheels.)

nice copy paste from wikipedia ass
under theoretical overview:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

ganstask8er you're pathetic. you cant win an argument against ten people. give up

I am loving this.

you would love this corytepper. you sick muthaf*cka

"...with my IQ i actually considered a genius."

Ganstamastab8er, you are the only one here that believes that. The statement above proves itself false.

giveherhell - 5
ganstask8er - 0

"with my IQ i actually considered a genius."

anyone want to handle this?

ya i'll handle you all night long corytepper. i've got a very firm hold

why is this such a big deal for you?
to prove to yourself that a mass produced bike is better than a handmade one?
that your beloved stp or whatever is better than a tonic?
i cant see why you cant understand the fact you've been proven wrong.

actually i haven't been proven wrong manik. you're just an idiot.

oh good one. why dont you just go spin a snowmobile or whatever

douchesk8er-do you enjoy handling men all night long, do you 360 them with a firm hold?

"actually i haven't been proven wrong"

Lets just see about that. Here are you original statements.

1. "way too overpriced."
2. "frames look weak too."
3. "would never buy a bike without some type of headtube flange or taper."

For statement 1, you have been proven wrong. These frames are not overpriced, just more expensive than an STP. The extra money buys you exclusivity, parochialism, unique design, soul, less weight, shorter stays, different material and different ride characteristics some other things folk have written that I have missed.

You have been proven wrong there too. You can't judge a frame's strength from a photo, unless it was obviously made of chawed mouldy straw and bird spit. five24 and giveherhell say they've been riding them for a while without a problem. It is steel afterall. Geez.

3. Well, you got me on this one. If you say you wouldn't buy a bike unless it did or didn't have this or that feature, then I guess I have to take your word for it. WHY you wouldn't do so is only known inside your head.

Oh, could you do me a favor? Please call Pinarello and Wilier and tell them where they are going wrong with their headtube design. Ya gotta spread that superior knowledge around, dude! Thanks.

+1

I think I found the complex mathematical formula that explains EVERYTHING:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040319h.jpg

hahaha, the formula IS correct.

"with my IQ i actually considered a genius"

yeah dude. good work. real genius of you there.

please don't desecrate a TonicFab with an atomlab fork!

Get an identiti, or even an Ns... please.

amen

so jealous dude

smartest comment on this whole dilemma, props man you must be a wise guy.

I too agree with you but only your first three and a bit lines, then it goes downhill...

The STP is NOT a beginner frame, it is just ridden by beginners because the groms have less money and the STP is the cheapest of the good bikes (as I said above). Lenosky would school nearly any other trials/park/DJ rider in the world, just check any of his vids.

It is true that aluminum is not as resistant to fatigue as steel, but if you didn't case the shit out of things and land badly it wouldn't matter now, would it?

I thought steel was the only way to go for DJ until I rode an STP. It opened my eyes. I've been riding bikes for over thirty years and started competing nearly 20 years ago and have done so in nearly every discipline on two wheels. I ain't no beginner!